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Sustainable Technology and the Entropy Argument | Mohammed Badrah, Kelly Okamura, David Hawk | Systems Thinking Ontario 2023-09-11

October 22, 2023
0 Comments

In a return to original Systems Thinking Ontario format, we reviewed an (old) systems thinking paper from 1998. Mohammed Badrah served as reviewer. Kelly Okamura was the discussant. The author, David Hawk, was available during the discussion period for extended knowledge.

As compared to prior Systems Thinking Ontario sessions with the word “entropy” in the title, the discussion was not on the scientific interpretations of the second law of thermodynamics, but instead on behaviours of human beings related to their social environments.

This recording of the session is available on Youtube, as well as on the Internet Archive .

Video H.264 MP4
September 11
(1h34m)		 [20230911_ST-ON SustainableTechEntropyArgument Badrah_Okamura_Hawk 1920×1030.m4v]
(FHD 1920×1080 1162kbps 876MB)
[on the Internet Archive]

A standalone audio was also created during the meeting.

Audio
September 11
(1h34m)		 [20230911_ST-ON SustainableTechEntropyArgument Badrah_Okamura_Hawk.m4a]
(87 MB)
[on the Internet Archive]

Here is the original abstract sent in advance.

— begin abstract —

Humans beings have significant problems in being human. The difficulties are manifest in many ways but generally begin with the way in which humans relate to their environment. The potentials for improvements in these relations are great but so too are the difficulties. This is in part because of serious shortcomings in how the resources essential to human existence are conceptualized and managed. These shortcomings are similar to those raised by General Systems Theorists fifty years ago. Noteworthy successes were limited, therefore the problems continue.… Read more (in a new tab)

In a return to original Systems Thinking Ontario format, we reviewed an (old) systems thinking paper from 1998. Mohammed Badrah served as reviewer. Kelly Okamura was the discussant. The author, David Hawk, was available during the discussion period for extended knowledge.

As compared to prior Systems Thinking Ontario sessions with the word “entropy” in the title, the discussion was not on the scientific interpretations of the second law of thermodynamics, but instead on behaviours of human beings related to their social environments.

This recording of the session is available on Youtube, as well as on the Internet Archive .

Video H.264 MP4
September 11
(1h34m)		 [20230911_ST-ON SustainableTechEntropyArgument Badrah_Okamura_Hawk 1920×1030.m4v]
(FHD 1920×1080 1162kbps 876MB)
[on the Internet Archive]

A standalone audio was also created during the meeting.

Audio
September 11
(1h34m)		 [20230911_ST-ON SustainableTechEntropyArgument Badrah_Okamura_Hawk.m4a]
(87 MB)
[on the Internet Archive]

Here is the original abstract sent in advance.

— begin abstract —

Humans beings have significant problems in being human. The difficulties are manifest in many ways but generally begin with the way in which humans relate to their environment. The potentials for improvements in these relations are great but so too are the difficulties. This is in part because of serious shortcomings in how the resources essential to human existence are conceptualized and managed. These shortcomings are similar to those raised by General Systems Theorists fifty years ago. Noteworthy successes were limited, therefore the problems continue.… Read more (in a new tab)

Entropy: The Second Law of Thermodynamics | David L. Hawk | ST-ON 2021-03-14

April 18, 2022
0 Comments

For espoused systems thinkers who are predisposed towards towards finding an equilibrium (or maybe one amongst multiple equilibria), a discussion about entropy can raise discomfort.  In the systems sciences, the second law of thermodynamics — as an entropic process — is often cited by the learned as a universal law applicable across physics, chemistry, biology … as well as social systems.

In economics, Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen drew attention to the inconvenience that “perpetual motion of the third kind is impossible“.  Thus, “a closed system that does work forever at a steady rate” violates the second law of thermodynamics.  Towards unpacking the implications of this universal law, we drew on David L. Hawk for expertise.

This video has been archived on the Internet Archive .

Video H.264 MP4
March 14
(1h37m)		 [20220314_ST-ON EntropySecondLawOfThermodynamics HDPlus.m4v]
(HDPlus 1073kbps 836MB)
[on the Internet Archive]

Audio downloadable onto mobile devices was transcoded from the video into MP3.

Audio
March 14
(1h37m)		 [20220314_ST-ON EntropySecondLawOfThermodynamics.mp3]
(33.5MB)

Developing and appreciation for entropy — let alone the controversies within correct scientific use of the second law of thermodynamics — is challenging, at best.  If we really wanted to get serious about understand living systems, we might look into the thermodynamics and ecology writings of James Kay, or read Eric D. Schneider and Dorion Sagan (2005) Into the Cool: Energy Flow, Thermodynamics, and Life.

Whenever I get into a discussion about entropy, it’s a toss-up whether I’m become less confused after the conversation, or more confused. … Read more (in a new tab)

For espoused systems thinkers who are predisposed towards towards finding an equilibrium (or maybe one amongst multiple equilibria), a discussion about entropy can raise discomfort.  In the systems sciences, the second law of thermodynamics — as an entropic process — is often cited by the learned as a universal law applicable across physics, chemistry, biology … as well as social systems.

In economics, Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen drew attention to the inconvenience that “perpetual motion of the third kind is impossible“.  Thus, “a closed system that does work forever at a steady rate” violates the second law of thermodynamics.  Towards unpacking the implications of this universal law, we drew on David L. Hawk for expertise.

This video has been archived on the Internet Archive .

Video H.264 MP4
March 14
(1h37m)		 [20220314_ST-ON EntropySecondLawOfThermodynamics HDPlus.m4v]
(HDPlus 1073kbps 836MB)
[on the Internet Archive]

Audio downloadable onto mobile devices was transcoded from the video into MP3.

Audio
March 14
(1h37m)		 [20220314_ST-ON EntropySecondLawOfThermodynamics.mp3]
(33.5MB)

Developing and appreciation for entropy — let alone the controversies within correct scientific use of the second law of thermodynamics — is challenging, at best.  If we really wanted to get serious about understand living systems, we might look into the thermodynamics and ecology writings of James Kay, or read Eric D. Schneider and Dorion Sagan (2005) Into the Cool: Energy Flow, Thermodynamics, and Life.

Whenever I get into a discussion about entropy, it’s a toss-up whether I’m become less confused after the conversation, or more confused. … Read more (in a new tab)

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