Coevolving Innovations

… in Business Organizations and Information Technologies

Is wiki markup dead?

Today, I’ve been playing around with beta candidate for Quickr, which is a follow-on to the Lotus Quickplace product … but what a leap ahead in product functionality!

Quickr components 1 to 6

Quickr components 7 to 8

I’ve been mainly interested in Quickr because, in the new announcements on the Lotus family, it’s the product with the wiki. (Lotus Connections has multi-user blogs, but not a wiki. Further, Quickr also has feeds — that should more correctly be called aggregators).

I get the feeling that the architects working on Quickr are a different group from those working on Connections, because the list of “components” feels more like options commonly in use on the web, rather than those used by large-scale enterprises. Maybe this comes from the quick-and-dirty style that Quickplace seems to exude … or maybe the designers just chose to take a different tack.

Although wikis would seem to be new to the vocabulary of non-techies (maybe circa 2005-2006, with the rise of Wikipedia), the original wikiwiki by Ward Cunningham on C2 goes back to August 1996. I had once tried to customize Mediawiki (which is the engine underneath Wikipedia), have a lot of experience with PmWiki, and am now a major fan of Dokuwiki. Along with the original design of wiki technology came wiki syntax (also known as wiki markup, which varies engine by engine), so that instead of writing the arcane HTML syntax1, e.g. to create a unordered list …

[ul]
[li]requires using codes that are unambiguous to browsers[/li]
[li]but that normal humans should never have to read[/li]
[/ul]

… a simpler alternative is wiki markup, e.g. creating a bulleted list with an asterisk in column one …

* with a syntax where checking for closure isn't required.

The wiki engine translates the wiki markup into XHTML. This may seem simpler for the novice, but it gets frustrating that …

(a) wiki markup isn’t standard across different wiki engines — so much so that an initiative for a wiki creole has evolved;

(b) when you want to do something more complicated like having a table where a cell spans multiple rows or multiple columns, the syntax doesn’t look nearly as simple; and

(c) after you get tired of writing wiki markup, it’s almost impossible to get a WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) interface on top of the wiki engine that you’ve chosen.

I’ve been using Drupal, an open source content management system, on many of the newer web sites that I’ve been creating. Choosing the package was partially motivated by the fact that a series of IBM Developerworks articles were written about the package. Drupal still has the user writing XHTML, but has the added option of choosing to plug in one of two WYSIWYG modules: TinyMCE or FCKEditor. For small jobs, I can hand-code XHTML. When the amount of text gets really large, though, it’s better to use the WYSIWYG editor so that I can focus more on content than on formatting.

After having spent a year trying to write a book with two collaborator using Dokuwiki, we’ve switched to the book module in Drupal. Like a wiki, Drupal retains the history of edits preceding the current version, and can expose the version-to-version changes with a diff module. In addition, the book module allows pages to be promoted to being a parent, or demoted to be a child, automatically inserting navigation links from the page, forward, backwards, or to the parent.

So, with WYSIWYG plug-ins available as open source software, is there a reason to still be writing wiki markup? I think the case for wiki markup is getting weaker by the day. The majority of people who have never seen wiki markup won’t miss it. Blogs are more popular than wikis, and blogs are mostly written as XHTML through a WYSIWYG editor or an offline program. Since Quickr offers both blog and wiki features within a single product, it makes sense to go with WYSIWYG and take the markup out of wiki.

Blogging killed wiki markup.


1 Of course, in standard XHTML, it’s angle brackets with “less than” and “greater than” signs rather than left square bracket and right square bracket … but I can’t seem to get the WYSIWYG editor in WordPress to show the real thing. You win some, you lose some!

3 Comments

  • I, too, hate WikiMarkup, and see it as a barrier to entry for using wikis among users who don’t want to become wiki wonks. But I have looked at a lot of WYSIWYG editors for wikis and I don’t like them either. They’re fragile and limited and funky and usually ill-supported. Just look at your own footnote: you’re telling me the WYSIWYG editor wouldn’t let you type “greater-than” or “less-than”?! The standard reply is, “Hey, it’s open source, if you don’t like it you can fix it or write a better one!” I think that’s a cop-out.

    Wiki WYSIWYG editors are almost universally based on the rich-text editor module built in to modern browsers. That means in addition to each having its own bugs and limitations they all share a set of underlying bugs and limitations. For example, they have no command to create a “Dictionary List” (HTML tags DL and DT) becuase the browser’s rich-text editor API doesn’t export that feature.

    Also, the WYSIWYG aspect is limited by the fact that they aren’t truly integrated with the wiki: if you use wiki plugins for image control or floating boxes or sidebars or anything else, you have to use specially-formatted text tags – not truly WYSIWYG.

    The lack of integration with the wiki is even more obvious in some other cases, including a JSPWiki used at my company: links in WYSIWYG pages aren’t visible to the wiki’s cross-reference generator, making networks of WYSIWYG-edited pages invisible to the “site map” navigation structures.

    In short, they’re just not first-class features of the wiki system with complete, bug-free implementations and full integration.

    Why? I have some theories. First of all, many wikis originated before the rich-text editing widgets of the browsers existed, so plain text INPUT fields were all they had. Second, I think maybe wiki creators and hard-core users have an attitude: “Real men don’t use WYSIWYG.”

    But third and most important, a full-featured, integrated WYSIWYG editor is hard and not fundamentally necessary. When it comes to things that are hard, open source is best suited to building things the community members themselves want (like compilers and Eclipse), not things that are good for non-technical people who don’t want to be wiki wonks. It takes paying customers to motivate technical people to write things for non-technical people – that’s how you get FrontPage instead of Notepad. Or Quickr, for that matter!

    I haven’t seen WYSIWYG editors get better (or enough better) in the last two years, so I don’t think wiki markup is dying very fast. I find that frustrating and sad.

  • You’ve raised the same question I’ve been wondering about myself for the last year or so. Having been an evangelist for the wiki concept at my organization, pitching it as an easy way for content owners to manage their stores in an open, accessible manner–thereby furthering knowledge management goals–I’ve run head-on into the problem of molding wikis to be useful for nontechnical people. I wrote a rather long article about the initial process last year, too, which you may enjoy: “Web-Based Collaborative Editing: Twiki, Tiddly or TikiWiki

    It was my belief from the beginning that the wiki would only be useful if it included some kind of rich-text editor, since I worried whether any of these busy people would bother trying to learn wiki syntax. Now I’m replacing the very simple Dojo rich-text editor with the much more full-featured TinyMCE, and I’m wondering if there’s anybody here who will want to retain their original wiki syntax (some of the content was entered with wiki syntax). As you know, TinyMCE will garble things like bullet lists, and the users will have to recreate them as HTML constructs.

    My belief is that wiki syntax was useful before WYSIWYG editors became feasible as a toolset. Now that they are (the last holdout, Safari, has now joined the pack with version 3.0), I can’t imagine that anyone would really prefer to write wiki syntax rather than using a WYSIWYG editor. Wiki syntax arose (like all of the other HTML-shorthand syntaxes out there) because typing HTML isn’t much fun. But compared with selecting a bullet list item from a toolbar, having to type an asterisk at the beginning of each line isn’t great either. And suppose you need a nested list… ? Etc.

    Of course, I’m removing from TinyMCE all of the controls that can cause trouble: Font coloring, font faces, font sizes, in particular. After all, our style sheet takes care of the style aspects. :-)

    Cheers,
    Leland

  • WYSIWYG example of Google could be useful for a lot of people, no technical people, but if i want a very quickly way of document a project and share with developers, WYSIWYG is awful, very unproductive. I create, in less than hour, a very clear understanding of my project using Wiki Syntax of Google and is very easy create links, TOCS or index. And with the command limitations, create a unique way of write that kind of information, making a common visualizations for all.

    I think that wiki can’t die if we want productivity in the computer science times.
    Sorry my english… :)


Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

  • RSS qoto.org/@daviding (Mastodon)

    • Dec 19, 2024, 13:00 December 19, 2024
      From the 1982 publication of _Organizations: Rational, Natural, and Open Systems_, W. Richard Scott in 2004 reflected back on the history of organizational sociology.> Before open system ideas, organizational scholars had concentrated on actors (workers, work groups, managers) and processes (motivation, cohesion, control) within organizations. Scant attention was accorded to the environment within which the […]
    • Dec 19, 2024, 12:58 December 19, 2024
      For those interested in detailed distinctions between systems approach, systems thinking, General Systems Theory, system science, etc, Aleksandra A. Nikiforova (Lomonosov Moscow State University) started an entry in the Encyclopedia of Knowledge Organization in 2022 that has been revised to 2024. https://www.isko.org/cyclo/systems .The International Society for Knowledge Organization is a “scholarly society devoted to the […]
    • Dec 15, 2024, 10:28 December 15, 2024
      The Future of Life Institute Safety Index is criticized by Mark Daley as too narrow, with an implicit bias disfavoring open sourcing.> The “Future of Life Institute” released their FLI Safety Index this week. [....] > By celebrating only those models that impose rigid controls on allowable thought and scorning those that grant the user […]
    • Dec 15, 2024, 10:11 December 15, 2024
      In understanding the precursors to the Gunderson and Holling 2001 _Panarchy_ book, it's good to keep in mind that when ecologists refer to "Adaptive Management", the clearer longer label is "Adaptive Environmental Assessment and Management".Holling, C.S. (1979). Adaptive Environmental Assessment and Management -- Current Progress and Prospects for the Approach: Summary Report of the First […]
    • Dec 10, 2024, 13:59 December 10, 2024
      In describing "go energy" and "stop energy", @pahlkadot approaches yang qi and yin qi, in a dyadic processual approach.> This is a useful nuance as I develop a framework for building state capacity. One of my admittedly obvious and oversimplified tenets is that systems have both “go energy” and “stop energy,” much as a car […]
  • RSS on IngBrief

    • Notion of Change in the Yijing | JeeLoo Lin 2017
      The appreciation of change is different in Western philosophy than in classical Chinese philosophy. JeeLoo Lin published a concise contrast on differences. Let me parse the Introduction to the journal article, that is so clearly written. The Chinese theory of time is built into a language that is tenseless. The Yijing (Book of Changes) there […]
    • World Hypotheses (Stephen C. Pepper) as a pluralist philosophy [Rescher, 1994]
      In trying to place the World Hypotheses work of Stephen C. Pepper (with multiple root metaphors), Nicholas Rescher provides a helpful positioning. — begin paste — Philosophical perspectivism maintains that substantive philosophical positions can be maintained only from a “perspective” of some sort. But what sort? Clearly different sorts of perspectives can be conceived of, […]
    • The Nature and Application of the Daodejing | Ames and Hall (2003)
      Ames and Hall (2003) provide some tips for those studyng the DaoDeJing.
    • Diachronic, diachrony
      Finding proper words to express system(s) change(s) can be a challenge. One alternative could be diachrony. The Oxford English dictionary provides two definitions for diachronic, the first one most generally related to time. (The second is linguistic method) diachronic ADJECTIVE Oxford English Dictionary, s.v. “diachronic (adj.), sense 1,” July 2023, https://doi.org/10.1093/OED/3691792233. For completeness, prochronic relates “to […]
    • Introduction, “Systems Thinking: Selected Readings, volume 2”, edited by F. E. Emery (1981)
      The selection of readings in the “Introduction” to Systems Thinking: Selected Readings, volume 2, Penguin (1981), edited by Fred E. Emery, reflects a turn from 1969 when a general systems theory was more fully entertained, towards an urgency towards changes in the world that were present in 1981. Systems thinking was again emphasized in contrast […]
    • Introduction, “Systems Thinking: Selected Readings”, edited by F. E. Emery (1969)
      In reviewing the original introduction for Systems Thinking: Selected Readings in the 1969 Penguin paperback, there’s a few threads that I only recognize, many years later. The tables of contents (disambiguating various editions) were previously listed as 1969, 1981 Emery, System Thinking: Selected Readings. — begin paste — Introduction In the selection of papers for this […]
  • Recent Posts

  • Archives

  • RSS on daviding.com

    • 2024/11 Moments November 2024
      Road trip to Rochester NY and Ithaca, with visits to art galleries as the days get shorter.
    • 2024/10 Moments October 2024
      Journey from Lugano Switzerland, return via Milan Italy, to fall in Toronto
    • 2024/09 Moments September 2024
      September neighbourhood music performances, day out with father, son's birthday party, travel via Milan to Genoa, systems conversation in Lugano
    • 2024/08 Moments August 2024
      Summer finishing with family events, and lots of outdoor music performances, captured with a new mirrorless camera for video from mid-month
    • 2024/07 Moments July 2024
      Summer festivals and music incubator shows in Toronto, all within biking distance.
    • 2024/06 Moments June 2024
      Summer jazz at the Distillery District, in Washington DC while at the annual systems conference, and then Toronto Jazz Festival
  • RSS on Media Queue

    • What to Do When It’s Too Late | David L. Hawk | 2024
      David L. Hawk (American management theorist, architect, and systems scientist) has been hosting a weekly television show broadcast on Bold Brave Tv from the New York area on Wednesdays 6pm ET, remotely from his home in Iowa. Live, callers can join…Read more ›
    • 2021/06/17 Keekok Lee | Philosophy of Chinese Medicine 2
      Following the first day lecture on Philosophy of Chinese Medicine 1 for the Global University for Sustainability, Keekok Lee continued on a second day on some topics: * Anatomy as structure; physiology as function (and process); * Process ontology, and thing ontology; * Qi ju as qi-in-concentrating mode, and qi san as qi-in-dissipsating mode; and […]
    • 2021/06/16 Keekok Lee | Philosophy of Chinese Medicine 1
      The philosophy of science underlying Classical Chinese Medicine, in this lecture by Keekok Lee, provides insights into ways in which systems change may be approached, in a process ontology in contrast to the thing ontology underlying Western BioMedicine. Read more ›
    • 2021/02/02 To Understand This Era, You Need to Think in Systems | Zeynep Tufekci with Ezra Klein | New York Times
      In conversation, @zeynep with @ezraklein reveal authentic #SystemsThinking in (i) appreciating that “science” is constructed by human collectives, (ii) the west orients towards individual outcomes rather than population levels; and (iii) there’s an over-emphasis on problems of the moment, and…Read more ›
    • 2019/04/09 Art as a discipline of inquiry | Tim Ingold (web video)
      In the question-answer period after the lecture, #TimIngold proposes art as a discipline of inquiry, rather than ethnography. This refers to his thinking On Human Correspondence. — begin paste — [75m26s question] I am curious to know what art, or…Read more ›
    • 2019/10/16 | “Bubbles, Golden Ages, and Tech Revolutions” | Carlota Perez
      How might our society show value for the long term, over the short term? Could we think about taxation over time, asks @carlotaprzperez in an interview: 92% for 1 day; 80% within 1 month; 50%-60% tax for 1 year; zero tax for 10 years.Read more ›
  • Meta

  • Creative Commons License
    This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International License
    Theme modified from DevDmBootstrap4 by Danny Machal